The 12th case referendum debate Focus! Xu Xiuwen: Fertility should not affect the right to equal marriage in same sex

Same-sex marriage, whether another legislative referendum debate, began 8:30 A.M. today, in response to the 12th case, the Love House referendum proposed that the rights of same-sex marriage, exclusion from civil law marital protection, debate.

The 12th case of the referendum was: "Do you agree to protect the rights and interests of the two sexes in a permanent joint life with other forms other than those stipulated in civil law marriage?" 」

In this case debate, the affirmative representative is a professor of the law Department of Chung Cheng University, Zenpingjie, the opposing party's representative, Xu Xiuwen lawyer for the standing director of the partnership, 12 minutes each, and the two sides take turns to speak two times, the following is a keynote excerpt.

Zenpingjie First speech

The marriage family, the national decision, the nation's sovereignty belongs to the national whole, Taiwan's marriage and the family system, is not by the minority political personage and the judicial elite to decide.

Women's obsession: What's wrong with this statement? You can quickly scroll to the Xu Xiuwen response by clicking this button. In addition, the justice of the word 748 paragraph code 15, said, "In our country, in the past because of the lack of social traditions and customs, to the long-term detention in the dark cabinet, subject to a variety of de facto or legal exclusion or discrimination, and the same-sex tendencies, due to demographic factors, isolated the minority of society, And because of the influence of stereotypes, long-term political weakness, difficult period through the general democratic process to reverse its legal disadvantage status. 」

Why do we advocate that in the form of civil law marriage provisions to protect the same sex two people to operate a permanent common life rights?

Because, the current civil law marriage chapter, the use of a lot of men and women married marriage language, so if we can retain the current marriage language, only refers to a male and female union, and in the form of other than marriage, such as same-sex couples, same-sex family members, to protect the legitimate rights and interests of same-sex life, This will not only respect the current situation of the vast majority of Taiwanese families, but also moderate the legal needs of the same-sex union minority groups. Such a comparison can be Qimei, that is to say, the majority of the marriage situation, and the protection needs of minorities. His advantage, in the daily life of the first can reduce the life of Taiwan people inconvenient.

Women's obsession: The current Civil Law marriage chapter also uses more precise terms such as "spouse", including the back of the identity card. Same-sex couples are protected by the Civil law marriage chapter, and will not cause the inconvenience of the life of Taiwanese people, concrete examples, through this one key, quickly scroll to Xu Xiuwen response to this.

Chinese legislators in the civil law relatives in the second chapter of marriage, the third chapter of the parents and children of the following provisions, in fact, a man and a woman in the physical union as the default basis, so, the current civil law marriage chapter has a lot of meaning of the physiological gender, or have a physiological understanding of the language. For example: Male and female clients, parents, couples, pregnant and inhuman. These words contain the feelings of the Taiwanese people's marriage and family, and he has the important meaning of maintaining the order of human relations.

Of course, we can say that the text of the provision is not an amendment, but it is not necessary to change the wording of the terms of the Taiwanese people with their human and cultural connotations. Because the person is gender sensitisation, you my physiology sex, not because the country admits the gender, or the psychological sex and the thin air disappears. Similarly, the words of men and women, husband and wife, parents, and so on, do not have to disappear or fits because of the appearance of homosexual unions.

These terms, which have agreed idiomatic, or have a physical gender, should be kept in motion. For the same-sex two people, and then the same-sex partner or same-sex family name and system, other ways to maintain, same-sex two people living together in a permanent combination of the relationship, it will not cause the people in the life of the troubled, otherwise, for the General people, married daughter, you said son-in-law is a woman; Ordinary Taiwanese people are hard to accept.

Women's obsession: same-sex marriage is protected by the civil law, and will not let men and women, couples, parents and other language, so disappear, or need to change yo. The daughter marries the male, still can call the male son-in-law, the son marries the female, may still call the female wife. If a daughter marries a woman and the son marries a male, the family can celebrate the discussion, accept the new family members and express love. The marriage appellation, the family altogether thought altogether creates:)

Supplementary judge's explanation of this doubt, in the explanation of the reason of the letter paragraph code 13:"according to the same sex two people for the purpose of business together, the establishment of a close and exclusive relationship between the permanent, not to affect the gender of the two persons applicable marriage chapter 1th to 5th section on betrothal, marriage, common effect of marriage, property system and divorce provisions, Nor does it change the social order of the existing heterosexual marriage, and the marriage freedom of the same sex two people, after the formal recognition of the law, can become a stable society with heterosexual marriage. 」

Secondly, at the level of law application, because of the combination of men and women and the same-sex, in the possibility of natural fertility, with biological parent-child relationship and other aspects of the nature of the differences, to maintain the current civil law marriage chapter, limited to a male and a female union, we then the same-sex two people living together permanently, with special law Other forms of same-sex couples, to be protected.

What we are here to emphasize is "too much emphasis on the utopian equality of application", ignoring the male and female, male and female combination of physiological factors, resulting in the affairs of nature, different normative differences, in fact, is cop.

Women's obsession: These factors have already been considered by the Chancellor before the gazettal of the Constitution, and the debate on the interpretation of the Constitution has been held, which can be viewed with one click .

For example, the presumption system of marriage, the quasi-positive system, and the claim system are different in nature and civil law on the premise that the birth is based on the mother, because of the relationship between men and women. Different things, equal application of the same rights and obligations results, in fact, will only cause pigtailed, the result of the disturbance. Public surrender number 12th, in addition to the civil law marriage provisions in other forms, to protect the permanent combination of the two sexes, the right to live together the legislative principles, which is in fact the interpretation of the word No. 748 is willing to recognize, but also completely in the interpretation of the word No. 748 explained the scope of the legislation revealed.

Our Secretary of the Court of Justice No. 748 interpretation, in fact, did not declare that the current civil law relatives to make marriage chapter on the marriage, only one man and one woman's provisions of the Constitution itself unconstitutional. For example, in his explanation of the reason of the paragraph code 18"the current marriage chapter on the heterosexual marriage system of the parties and related powers, obligations, not due to the interpretation of the change. That is, the current civil law a man and a woman marriage system itself, in fact, is not unconstitutional. The marriage system of a man and a woman will not be altered by the release of number No. 748, which is why we put forward the tenth case of public surrender.

Women's obsession: A man and a woman married is not unconstitutional, is the marriage "only" in a man and a woman, excluding same-sex marriage, by the judge declared unconstitutional, marriage of course not because of the judge's interpretation of the word change. The presumption, quasi-positive or claiming rights of the married students are not affected. Example, you can scroll to see the following button .

In other words, the existing civil law provisions are working well, the combination of a man and a woman is fully in line with social thinking, so we think this part is not to move. As for the legitimate rights and interests of the same-sex two people, we also protect them by means other than marriage.

Xu Xiuwen First-round speeches:

I am the Executive director of the Taiwan Companion Promotion Alliance, Xu Xiuwen, and the Attorney-General, who was explained last year by 748, Mr. Chi Jiawei is my client.

I've had a severe allergy and a cold in the past week, but I know it's still going to come today, from the partnership with many partners to start the issue of marriage equality, over the past six or seven years, I have met Mr. Zenpingjie on various occasions as a professor who has been pushed out by the anti-Christian camp.

Mr Tsang first introduced the status of law professors, and the legal opinions you have issued, are they based on the status of a Quaker or a legal profession? Prior to the release of the Chancellor last year, in March, you received an interview with the Christian Tribune to encourage young Christians to have a career in law, " When the value of the law contradicts the biblical values, you say that you want to choose Biblical values and, in turn, argue with your own professional laws, so that current or future laws do not contradict biblical values, which is what Christian legal people do.

The Civil Law marriage system in the end should exclude comrades, the civil law marriage continues to be reserved for heterosexual special? If Mr Tsang cannot clarify whether he is speaking as a Quaker or a professor, we may confuse the value of constitutionalism with that of the Bible.

2nd, I know very well why I stand here, as a lawyer who has been practising for over 20 years, I have been exposed to a lot of gay couples who, because of their identity, have not been properly and equally protected and have suffered many tragedies. You say whether these tragedies can be avoided, yes, it is a man-made tragedy. As a practicing lawyer and a lesbian, I can help the parties deal with divorce cases, coordinate the distribution of surplus property, coordinate custody ownership, Mr Tsang stood in the position of the representative of the Love House referendum, but think I should not have the qualifications to use the marriage system.

It reminds me of a little story to share with everyone. The United States, in fact, was once a profession that did not allow women to engage in lawyers, and even they thought that the word "Lawyer" was, by definition, a profession that men could engage in. At that time, women who wanted to engage in a lawyer's lawsuit, the Supreme Court ruled that the law industry should be reserved for men, because women in accordance with the creator of the law, the most appropriate position is the family, to become a wife and mother. After a long effort, the United States now has very many female lawyers, just like Taiwan. To make a woman a lawyer, the word "lawyer" does not need to be redefined, and the connotation has not changed, and this practitioner helps to solve the nature and function of legal disputes, does not change, does not need to create a new word instead of a lawyer, for the female lawyer to special.

To protect same-sex unions, not to use civil marriage, to use same-sex couples or same-sex dependents, it's like, Xu Xiuwen, you pass the bar exam because you are female or lesbian, you have to call yourself a mage. Absurd degree, that is so.

Why can't the same set of laws apply to same-sex spouses? For all the reasons given by Mr Tsang, the justices have already considered the physiological and rituals reasons, and in number No. 748, it has also been explained that "fertility is not an element of marriage, and it is not possible to exclude the eligibility of same-sex marriage for such reasons." 」

The so-called legal appellation, Mr. Zeng constantly confuse, just China's civil law there are different, there are places to address the husband and wife, there are places to address the spouse, your identity card if turned over to see, write is also a neutral appellation, called "spouse". As for the various appellation in the household registration, heterosexual family marriage can also be unaffected, because these titles can be retained in full, it is not possible for these technical reasons, to exclude same-sex couples enjoy the right to marriage.

Proposition 12th makes people feel miserable and despicable, the emphasis is clearly excluded from the civil law marriage, the term should be used to protect the two words.

Whether it is the tenth case of the love family, or the 12th case of the special law referendum, with the release of the word 748来 see what the effect is, do not be loved by the referendum to deceive.

A lot of people think, in the 10th and 12, the vote agreed, comrade can not get married, really is this? 748 It has been clearly pointed out that the civil law only guarantees the marriage of the opposite sex, does not guarantee same-sex marriage, the matter is unconstitutional, he did give legislators a certain scope of legislation, but the judge gave the bottom line is very clear, this legislation, regardless of the form, must protect the same-sex two people's marriage freedom.

Freedom of marriage is definitely not registered as same-sex couples, same-sex family members, which is deliberately distorted the judge's traditional definition of freedom of marriage. Even the Chief Justice has re-stated in No. 748 that the freedom of marriage means that people of marriageable age have freedom of marriage. Freedom to marry, including whether to marry, and who to marry.

The judge also said that the two-year practice period, that is, until May 24 next year, if the legislature is lazy, is directly applicable to the Civil law marriage chapter, so that the same-sex two people can register marriage under the Civil law marriage chapter, and even do not need to repair law, you can register marriage, which means that the same-sex spouse, direct application The justices said there was no problem.

Mr. Zenpingjie said, do not cause everyone's life inconvenience, if one thing involves the basic rights of people, regardless of the concept of the majority, should be practiced, such as physical and mental disorders, Aboriginal and even gay marriage rights, are the same truth. I do not think that the majority of Taiwanese support is only to make a man and a woman marriage, as the only truth, the only sacred thing. The reason why so many anti-Christians are refusing to let same-sex couples use the right to marry is ultimately a refusal to apply equally, which has to do with hidden religious beliefs. These anti-Christians, which make up only a minority of Taiwan's population, believe that the biblical system of marriage is created by God and confined to the Union of a man and a woman, rather than a combination of Adam and Eve, not John and Steve.

Because of this belief position, they are very extreme want to intervene in constitutionalism, rule of law, intervene secular civil law marriage.

You can have your religion and we respect it, but we are talking about civil marriage. As a legal scholar, you should also be aware that, under the framework of the constitutional state of Taiwan, the interpretation made by the Chancellor is binding on the effectiveness of the various organs of the country, including the legislative administration of justice, even if the love House referendum 10 and 12 passed, the most restrictive is the legislative form, that is, the other same-sex marriage law, The content of the protection must be identical to that of civil law, which was also indicated in the June interview by the select committee. Since it is exactly the same, why, is it impossible to extend the scope of the protection of civil law?

Zenpingjie Two Speeches

Thank you Miss Xu's question, I was completely legal to answer the question.

There is a lack of marital provisions, within this range, in contravention of the constitutional intent. The judge did not say that the current marriage system of a man and a woman is unconstitutional. But there is a shortage, in this context and the constitutional intent is violated.

The judge explained the reason for paragraph 17, in order to avoid the legislative delay, leading to inadequate norms, in this part to be replenished. Paragraph code 17"the complexity of the case and the controversy, or the need for a longer period of legislative scrutiny, and in order to avoid the legislative delay, resulting in the unconstitutional state of the lack of regulation indefinitely, the relevant organs shall be published in this interpretation within 2 years from the date of this interpretation will be completed in accordance with the relevant laws of the amendment or formulation. "So he also speaks very clearly here, that is, the existing rule of law has inadequate standards, not so that the same-sex two people can set up a permanent union relationship, in this part to be replenished."

The judge explained that the so-called marriage freedom, in fact, refers to the same-sex two people have to set up a permanent relationship of intimacy and exclusivity. Therefore, his freedom of marriage means that the same-sex two people have to set up a permanent bond of intimacy and exclusivity. That is, the same-sex two people can freely set up a permanent union relationship. As to what form to achieve the freedom of marriage, that is, the permanent combination of the same-sex two people, the interpretation of the word No. 748, can be used in other forms than marriage, to cover the protection of the same-sex two permanent union relationship.

Interpretation of the above-mentioned No. 748, marriage freedom refers to the same-sex two people can permanently combine the relationship, has never been limited to the same-sex two marriage freedom of equal protection, can only use marriage or marriage law name, and has never been prohibited through marriage or marriage outside the legal system to complement, to protect the same-sex two permanent union relationship. Therefore, we see that in the main text of the word No. 748, it is mentioned that "as to the form of equal protection of marriage freedom, it is the scope of legislative formation". Why would the Chancellor say, "As for the form of equal protection of the freedom of marriage, it is the scope of legislation?"

We need to go back to the March 24, 2017, the Secretary of Justice, to make the interpretation of the word No. 748 two months ago, the Constitutional Court has opened a speech debate, proposed four legal disputes. One of the fourth legal issues is "if legislation to create other systems of non-marriage (such as same-sex couples), is it in accordance with seventh of the Constitution guaranteeing equal rights, and 22nd article on the intention to guarantee freedom of marriage?" In other words, the justices ask, "Does the other system of non-marriage make up for the permanent relationship between the same sex, violates the 22nd of the Constitution and guarantees the freedom of marriage and the equality of the Constitution seventh?" 」

In this regard, the interpretation of the text of No. 748 said that "as to the form of equal protection of marriage freedom, is the scope of legislative formation," the Chancellor is afraid that we do not understand, in his explanation of the reason of the code 17, further elaborated "in what form (such as amending the marriage chapter, Huminfa relatives to make another special chapter, Enactment of special laws or other forms) ".

The main text of the 12th case of the public surrender is "do you agree to protect the rights and interests of the same sex two persons to operate the permanent common life in other forms other than the civil law marriage provisions?" "In fact, the interpretation of the letter No. 748 explanation of reason for paragraph 17 of the meaning of the scope of the text."

Woman Puzzle Press: Paragraph code 17 of this sentence full content, "to what form (for example, amend the marriage chapter, Huminfa relatives to make another special chapter, the enactment of specific laws or other forms), so that the same sex two people, for the purpose of operating a common life, to establish a permanent relationship of intimacy and exclusivity, To achieve equal protection of marriage freedom . "The purpose is equal protection of the freedom of marriage, the form for legislators to decide, but the referendum 12 case, only talk about the same sex common life rights, do not mention and deliberately exclude the same-sex two people" marriage freedom and Equal protection ", why?

Executive Yuan two days ago, in Friday of November 2, the Executive Yuan, which announced the tenth and 12th cases of the referendum, wrote that the Constitution guarantees the right of marriage of same sex, which has been confirmed by the word No. No. 748, and will not be changed by the results of this referendum. To what form, this is the scope of legislation formation. We have to say that the Executive Yuan distorted the opinions of the justices. Do you think this is the right thing to do, no matter what the referendum results are (constitutional guarantees of same-sex marriage rights), the TV folks friends?

Xu Xiuwen Final Statement:

Everyone national TV friends good, in fact, we can look slightly, now internationally, in the marriage equality legislation is what the situation.

The time to push back April 1, 2001 midnight, that is, Amsterdam a second in the morning, the mayor of Amsterdam, for four pairs of gay couples. The Netherlands, the first country in the world to adopt same-sex marriage, why choose to hold a wedding in a second at midnight? Because in that second, the law came into force, the Dutch comrades, even a second of equality, do not want to lose again.

Prior to this, the Dutch Government in fact open the partner system, so that same-sex or heterosexual couples can be registered as partners, including rights and obligations, and marriage is very similar, and finally, the Dutch government and people found that the name and the different names, in the cultural symbol, there is still a great difference. If same-sex partners do not like heterosexual partners, always choose the right to marry, is still inferior treatment. At the same time, it also preserves the partner system so that homosexual or heterosexual couples can choose a partner system to use.

After the Netherlands, we see a very large number of countries, including Belgium, Canada, Spain, South Africa, Argentina, so far there are 25 countries to guarantee marriage equality, geographical spread throughout Europe, North America, South America, New Zealand, these regions, in the language and religious culture and political situation, there are very many differences, many countries, Christianity and Catholicism also accounted for more than 80% or 90 of the population, why, in the circumstances of so many differences, these countries have been in the past years, through same-sex marriage, decided to equal the right to protect the same-sex two people married? Why?

Because human beings are capable of introspection, overcoming prejudices, and improving mistakes, these countries realize that the right to be inferior or to exclude gay marriage in the past is treated improperly, so they correct these mistakes in history. In the last 748, the chancellor has also made it clear that the marriage of the same-sex couples is the basic freedom of marriage guaranteed by our Constitution, and that equality in the protection of marriage obligations in civil law will constitute discrimination of sexual orientation and violate the equal rights of our Constitution.

Many in the marriage equality this road struggle diligently, waits the friend, often asks, the equality exactly also waits for how long, to the party Chi Jiawei, from 1986, hoped that the country may legislate lets the same-sex can marry. Has been Eve more, we have to ask, a person's life, can have a few 30 years? Many people will think that you can slow down, first with the isolation of the special law, there is better than no good, do not skyrocketing rise, as if the same-sex couples want to become a spouse, is a very greedy thing. But what is the truth? The truth is, if I marry my same-sex partner today, it will not affect the rights and obligations of any heterosexual marriage family in the world at all. What do heterosexual families call each other, establish a relationship of human relations, no change, no one is harmed.

I believe that the people of Taiwan have a sense of injustice, and I believe that the Taiwan Society is a multicultural society and that the implementation of the NO. 748-letter guarantee of marriage equality is the beginning of a more equal and better society in Taiwan.

Do same-sex marriage protection, not anti-religious organizations incite populism, say that everyone can accept it? The decision to overthrow the judge. Taiwan is a constitutional country ruled by law, the referendum is certainly a form of democracy, nor can it be a superficial simplification of democracy to the majority of the decision. Democracy makes us a constitutional system of separation of powers, there is unconstitutional review system, is to check the flaws of legislation, when legislators do not guarantee the basic rights of the people, the judge has the right to declare the state is unconstitutional under the Constitution, request the Government to improve, not by the populist method, recourse to a referendum, can be overturned.

In fact, many anti-religious organizations have stressed the need to fight the economy and not to engage in gender issues. The most ridiculous thing is that the legal benefits of the three love referendum, even if the votes are up to 4.95 million, same-sex still can marry, because the Constitutional Court has decided to, they spend 300 million yuan, to make this love home referendum. Even if you vote for the Love house referendum, you can't stop the fact that same-sex can get married. The most can achieve is the same-sex marriage law, must be equal to the protection of civil marriage. Since the guarantee must be the same, it must also be called marriage, that is why it is so belabour, spent 300 million yuan, make this love home referendum, finally same-sex, still can marry.

It is even more ridiculous to prohibit the implementation of the gay education case, which, according to the Ministry of Education, is more difficult to deter. In November 24, we will receive three votes in the referendum, 10, 11, 12th, respectively, please vote for the vote of disagreement as a political gesture. Although in practice, the legal effects of these three cases are very limited and can only be confined to legislative forms and cannot prevent the right to same-sex marriage, we have to say no to discrimination, to segregation, to the referendum proposal claiming to be a real harm to a loved home.

From historical experience, countries that have taken separate legislation have spent a long time and more costs, such as Germany, where it has taken an isolated, specialized approach to the domestic anti-co-organization, which later took 15 years, how many judicial proceedings and various administrative costs, Ultimately, the right to equal marriage is still to be made available to the same sex. Britain, Austria, also through the separation of the road of the special law, and finally found that the road is not feasible, logic and reason are not feasible, the separation of the special law, is to say that gay citizens are inferior.

All the support of the special law, the other special law to the same-sex couples talk, like to protect the family, for the next generation, the traditional family value, but is to hide the fact that they believe that gay citizens are inferior people, bad people, but can not say, in order to conceal such a mentality, had to use a very many words to incite public opinion I hope you can prevent the rights of same-sex couples from being fulfilled.

Over the past six or seven years, it has also been possible to see a change in the anti-Christian camp. At the earliest, they were saying that there was absolutely no need for protection, no legislation, or that if legislation were to be enacted, it would be better to give some protection to the important interests on a single point. When the chancellor releases the Constitution, knowing that the matter cannot be stopped, they still want to be able to stop and delay the realization of equal rights. Such a mentality, really very sad. The despicable place of the case is that the 12th case clearly wants to exclude comrades from civil law marriages, but the wording is protected. Exclusion and segregation are discrimination.

Please vote for the 12th case, thank you for not agreeing to vote.