Interview with Comrade Hotline Peng Zhileng: The Ye Yonghua incident, being thrown down and bullied is everyone's fear

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Let's go a little deeper than nostalgia. From the structural level, let's talk about Ye Yongquan.

We often think about where did those boys who did not conform to the imagination of gender temperament go later?

Writer Chen Fanqi once wrote in "The Kite Can't Fall" that ordinary is just passing. But am I a passing boy?"

Ordinary is that you can't cover your mouth when you laugh. If possible, a huge amount of "hahaha" sounds should be gathered from the vocal cords, rather than just a ethereal laugh from the throat. When sitting, your legs should be at least a little open, and your hair should not be too long. Exercise is good, physical fitness every year to measure the 100-meter running speed, before the test, I will definitely make an appointment with the students running together: don't run too fast, reach the finish line together.

On April 20, the 19th anniversary of Ye Yongtul's death, we invited Peng Zhiliang, deputy secretary-general of the Gay Consultation Hotline Association, to talk about how much the campus has improved against gay people and school bullying that does not conform to gender characteristics.

Gender power

Boys and girls who don't fit the mainstream imagination, have they successfully reached the finish line? (Extended reading: Chen Fanqi's special article|When society denies that men are gentle and cute, am I still "passing"?) ）

Looking back at the rose boy: his fear is actually our fear

In 2000, a boy named Ye Yonghua studied at Gaoshu Junior High School in Pingtung. Because of her gentle personality and too feminine, she has been verbally bullied by her classmates for a long time, and even ridiculed by taking off her pants. In order to avoid being bullied, the boy did not dare to go to the toilet after class. Always raise your hand and leave in the last five minutes of class.

On April 20 of that year, as usual, Ye Yongquan raised his hand and left from music class to go to the toilet. never came back. He was found lying face down in a pool of blood. The forensic doctor determined that he may have died from a head impact caused by a slip in the toilet. If Ye Yonghua had not been bullied, he probably wouldn't have been able to go to the toilet alone during class time, injured and unrescued. (Extended reading: There is no gender education on campus, who will catch "Ye Yongcheng"?) ）

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"I'm 37 years old. Ye Yongxian is three or four years younger than me. When the incident occurred, I was still a high school student preparing for the joint entrance examination." Peng Zhiqiao said. "If he were alive, we would be of the same generation."

"Not to mention the Taiwanese people, even the scholars and partners in the gender movement at that time were strongly aware that the impact of the lack of gender awareness would not only affect women, but also men."

Peng Zhileng said that from a legal point of view, the significance of the Ye Yonghua incident is that many people suddenly realize that the victims of bullying incidents are not only girls, but also boys. In 2004, the Ministry of Education also amended the Gender Equality Education Law to the Gender Equality Education Law, so that gender equality education can be viewed from a broader perspective, not just gender.

And from a social perspective? Peng Zhiqiao said:

Ye Yongcheng is a boy with a feminine temperament, and to be honest, we are not sure about his sexual orientation, and we have no chance to know. But in my opinion, the gay community feels because of his fear, which is actually our fear. Not all, but there are quite a few gay men who have a somewhat feminine temperament when they were young, so when they see their image as a child and suffer such things, the fear is very strong.

Many people grow up like this.

I'm not like that, but I have a lot of friends, and I have indeed had to hide from my classmates to go to the toilet since I was a child. Otherwise you will be bullied. Same as Ye Yongquan. Being scolded and taken off his pants. Until now, I have been working on youth gay issues on the hotline, and gay men under the age of 30 also said that they had similar experiences in middle and high school.

To put it bluntly, as long as the bullying does not disappear, it is present, in the toilet, in the classroom, and in the parenting class. Everyone is just one after another, Ye Yongquan who was thrown down.

School bullying: teenagers are the hardest group

His words ignited our vigilance. "Are you talking about now, or are there any young gay people who are bullied like this?" Peng Zhiqiao said yes, there are still such cases. (Extended reading: Jolin Tsai's concert re-reading Rose Boy: Ye Yongcheng is dead, but there are more Ye Yongcheng in the world)

I am still in charge of the issue of young gay people in the hotline, so I have heard that many young gay people are having a very bad time in school. Compared with my time, the topics may be slightly different. In my time, my classmates didn't have much information about gay people, and everyone would not discuss them at every turn. Now comrades can be seen in society. Even we voted in the referendum.

Gender power

In the past 20 years, when gay people have changed from "invisible" to "seen", there have been more friendly voices, but unfriendly attacks have also become more direct. "It's something you can't hide even if you want to." He said.

"Friendliness means that when we hold activities, I can clearly feel that some students have come out of the class, some friends, everyone gets along well, or even teachers know about it. Unfriendly situations, even the current bullying, can still be seen, including destroying personal belongings and breaking tables and chairs. There are also groups that don't look for him, and they are always alone."

However, over the past 20 years, the social resource network has also improved a lot. "Most of the counseling rooms are actually friendly. However, how much help can be done still depends on the attitude of each tutoring room. Of course, this alone is a big step forward. Of course, this is also related to the long-term promotion of the Gender Equality Education Act." After the Ye Yonghua incident, step by step, society seems to be really slowly improving.

Peng Zhileng pointed out that after the referendum, young comrades are the hardest. "I sometimes joke that they are the hardest group, stuck between home and school."

"On the eve of last year's referendum, many high school students, before they could vote, already tried to talk to their families, parents themselves are not necessarily attacking, anti-homosexual, but they can feel unfriendly or worried, when these teenagers feel that communication is ineffective, they are under a lot of pressure."

"They can't even vote, it's obviously related to themselves, but they are the ones who are decided." It is equivalent to watching their future and being denied by adults who do not know enough about the issue with one vote after another.

As a gay man: good grades are an umbrella, but it is a growth strategy that grows out

I was also a feminine boy when I was a child. To put it nicely, gentle, quiet and inactive. Although it is not that there are no male friends, it is better to have female classmates. Ye Yongcheng's story reminds me of how I got here at that time?

Gender power

He recalled the scene when he was a child: "In Taiwan's further education environment, as long as you do your homework well, there seems to be an umbrella in the class. You have a little chip." But not everyone is as lucky as he is, he said. He is a native of Taoyuan, graduated from high school, and entered the Department of Social Work of National Taiwan University. is also a child with "good grades" in the eyes of adults.

I didn't realize this when I was a child. This is what I only remembered when I thought about it. Because I have good homework, good popularity, and can get along with everyone, I will also be a bridge between teachers and classmates, so that I will not be cast too many strange eyes by my classmates.

Do you think this is good or bad? "It's a survival strategy. Not consciously, but naturally growing in the environment."

Some children do well in school and can even make a small rebellion against an unequal campus. "I once heard a teacher say in the class that if you care about gay people, you may be gay. In this situation, many students may not be able to do anything, at most complain privately or post Facebook to get angry. Students who dare to resist are willing to stand up and say that the teacher is wrong with you, and many times it is because he is popular and his classmates support him that he can stand up and speak."

"However, many children have not yet developed such survival strategies or have such social resources," they are bullied.

How to Reduce School Bullying: Understand the structure of a bullying incident, shake it up

I asked Peng Zhileng, how to deal with school bullying between students? In many cases, when teachers or schools try to intervene, the incident intensifies. Is there anything you can do to help as an external NGO?

"I observed that most children are empathetic, but they don't think about the harm he can do to a person when they make trouble." When we think that children are full of malice, but many times, they just don't know the cost of harm.

Inside bullying, there are many roles. Some are taking the lead, some are gatekeepers, and some are bystanders. Then, bullying is also a power game. What many people are afraid of is that if I don't participate in this game, will I be bullied too? The underlying rules of the game are this, we need to see this structure first, so just stop it in a strong way, and the bullying itself will not go away.

Even if the parties desperately resist and the teacher intervenes, it will be difficult to achieve results. Because even if the person who takes the lead this time stops, the next person will come out and continue the cycle.

The easier way to deal with bullying is that there are a few people in it who are aware of this cycle and are willing to express it. The whole bullying structure will fall apart. What education can do is to let more people with different life experiences come out and talk about it, and then let students know these stories.

It's not just LGBTQIA+ or children who don't fit gender stereotypes who are bullied. Peng Zhileng said that children whose weight does not conform to mainstream imagination, who do not do well in their homework, and whose families are hard-working are often targeted. If students can understand that these people also have stories, bullying will be much reduced.

We think it's a personal problem, but more often than not, it's a structural problem. The problem of structure should be solved by structural methods.

Gender power

As a helper: "We can no longer be trapped in the stratosphere, collective hypothermia"

The story line returns to Peng Zhileng, listening to him talk about school bullying, he can always mention many subtleties and understand each character and give empathy. We also listen to him tell his story.

"I am from Taoyuan, and I am a social worker at National Taiwan University." I knew I was gay in high school. In his sophomore year, he joined the gay hotline as a volunteer. "I'm not just someone who likes to hang out, I prefer to do something with everyone." This also seems to be what drives his motivation. He volunteered at the age of about 20, and by the age of 37 this year, Peng Zhileng had dedicated almost his entire youth to the hotline and the gay movement.

"I was even the fourth employee of the hotline at that time." He was a little embarrassed, as if he had exposed his qualifications (although he had said it many times before), and the hotline had grown from a four-person organization to a stronger NGO. His areas of devotion are mainly adolescent gay and intimate relationship violence.

What is the deepest feeling for him about participating in the issue of young gay people? His answer is not just the answer of the gay community. That is, the answer to the entire Taiwan dilemma.

"I found that the most serious gap between conversations is actually in the generation gap. The younger generation is open minded about many things, but their previous generation, parents and teachers, are not so sure." They don't necessarily oppose it, but they don't understand, and there is a lack of communication between the two sides.

He said the hotline was also committed to communicating with people outside the "stratosphere".

"We can't be trapped in the stratosphere anymore and then collectively hypothermia." He said with a smile.

Gender power

"In fact, many people in the middle just don't understand a little, or can't clarify some concepts yet, but they are more likely to be beaten by anxious people, monkey~ Are you anti-same?" In fact, in the long run, this will cause harm to each other, and it will also be more difficult to get more people interested and willing to understand the concept.

If we say that the Ye Yonghua incident has made us go from being invisible to being seen. Then our next step, and the more difficult step, is how to see each other to understand each other.

Postscript to the interview

Peng Zhilao's "Liao" is pronounced as "Liu", which is a relatively rare and difficult name to pronounce. "There are no more than five people who can read the right thing at first glance. This was chosen by the fortune teller, saying that he wanted to be next to the golden characters, and my grandfather picked a word from the pile of gold that no one could pronounce." I then asked, is the nickname "night blind" because the real name is too difficult to pronounce?

He was a little embarrassed to say that in the early days, comrades had to know each other, and there were many thresholds in the middle, and at that time, there was a deep prejudice against comrades, afraid of immortal jumping, afraid of the police, if you look back at the history of the development of comrades, we are closely tied to the police. So many people will take nicknames to keep the two worlds separated. It's not like Facebook and IG now." Night blindness is just one of the nicknames, which a friend took for him, and he has been walking and jumping all the way, and he has gradually used it to this day.

He said that it seems that age and generational experience are too exposed. It can be written into a history of the development of gay dating technology intertwined with blood and tears.